tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post2163686271155689776..comments2023-10-03T06:25:41.357-05:00Comments on Grace Roots Blog: Why I don't like the word "tithe" in the churchJoel Bruesekehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-53632724409349652862012-08-07T08:41:59.552-05:002012-08-07T08:41:59.552-05:00Tithe means payment. He paid a debt I could not p...Tithe means payment. He paid a debt I could not pay. A good steward should know what is being paid for and when it's paid up. Offering is giving. Do we get saved freely and then pay the rest of our lives? No. "Tithes and offerings" makes a clear distinction betwee the two. There are no words in the bible of a NT tithe doctrine. Only Levites had the command so they are teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. <br /><br />JohnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-57383660253086788902012-05-28T20:37:52.403-05:002012-05-28T20:37:52.403-05:00Yes, I so agree. I like the back and forth of iron...Yes, I so agree. I like the back and forth of iron sharpening iron in community. Even God doesn't control us - gives us a free will. --CindyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-45813898865540468262012-05-27T08:56:26.318-05:002012-05-27T08:56:26.318-05:00That's quite often how I've seen it, or he...That's quite often how I've seen it, or heard about it from others. The "covering" concept is used as more of a control thing, rather than a way to help and edify and care for others. There are indeed people who have a genuine "shepherd's heart" for others, but I don't think they were ever meant to be in control of others. Rather, they use their influence and compassion to help build the body, rather than using the body to help build themselves, so to speak.Joel Bruesekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-20395963876613195402012-05-26T23:17:10.079-05:002012-05-26T23:17:10.079-05:00Oh, and by the way, I also agree with your comment...Oh, and by the way, I also agree with your comments on covering, too. Each of your points on covering remind me of scriptures that would back up your points. I believe at some point, it likely made natural sense to just organize doing "church" (not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself). The traditions we now have, seem to be accepted as if Biblical directives (without questioning, or letting the scripture point out/divide for our discernment between what is pure - from God - and what is tradition - from man). We need to let the scripture be our truth, constantly washing us clean from confusion. --CindyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-88281214733274484282012-05-26T22:47:20.684-05:002012-05-26T22:47:20.684-05:00I so agree w you on giving, and I think when I wan...I so agree w you on giving, and I think when I want to refresh my thoughts on this, I'll go back to 2 Corinthians 8 & 9 amplified version for my "refresher". On covering (a bit off subject), I'm still needing to study a bit further, since it involves curiosities other than about giving that still seem to puzzle me (like Pastors saying they are responsible to God for us -- it seems that is Jesus' position: He keeps us until the end). I've only heard a Pastor, in everyday life (not in a sermon or on TV), use this in what seemed to be a controlling way to keep someone at their church or to stay in a ministry when that person felt called in a different direction. But I digress (another one I don't have time to study out at this point). :) --CindyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-62032007592159724292012-05-20T16:07:42.505-05:002012-05-20T16:07:42.505-05:00Hi Cindy,
I certainly understand what you mean by...Hi Cindy,<br /><br />I certainly understand what you mean by "choosing your battles" as to what you have time to study out. I do the same thing. There are many biblical things that interest me, but I just don't have time to get into all of them, so I stick with ones that I seem to be more passionate about.<br /><br />On this particular issue - giving - I really think it boils down to something very simple. Whatever is on your heart to give, and whatever you are able to give, give it freely and not because anyone "compels" you to give ("under compulsion"). We have so much freedom of choice in this. We "get" to give - from our hearts! - rather than it being about always giving a specific amount or percentage, and also rather than it being a matter of comparing what we give to what others give or trying to analyze and over-analyze what we're "supposed" to give. :)<br /><br />On the subject of "covering," there really is no New Covenant concept of that... at least not in the sense that some churches make it out to be. Jesus Himself is the Head of His church. He Himself is our covering. There is no hierarchy in the church - which is His body. No one is "above" anyone else. Each one of us is unique, and we play our individual and diverse parts within the body as a whole.<br /><br />There are indeed people who are more mature than others, and who can play very helpful mentor roles and "leadership" roles, but they are not our "covering," and they are no more in need of being supported than anyone else in the body. In other words, we are all equally in need of supporting one another. <br /><br />That said, some things that people do within the body do indeed "cost" more than other things, and we, as a body, can step up and support them in larger ways if needed. But the concept of pastors and teachers (etc) being paid in the ways that they are paid these days is indeed tradition, and not biblical. "Pastors" weren't put in the body as "paid positions." However, if a local body is set up that way, and they all agree that they want to have their local body set up that way, then they can most certainly do that. A local body is not limited or compelled to do things a certain way.<br /><br />I'm kind of getting off track here, but the main thing I wanted to point out is that we are Christ's body, and He is the Head. We, together as a body, support <i>one another</i>, rather than it being a matter of supporting certain special people. :)Joel Bruesekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-27436342124108245902012-05-20T00:23:49.857-05:002012-05-20T00:23:49.857-05:00Joel, this is the first time I'm reading a blo...Joel, this is the first time I'm reading a blog of yours. I read through the Bible regularly and also study it, but never did a study on tithe. I did see the points you make as I read the word, but without studying it, didn't bother to search for a conclusion on tithing (I was "choosing my battles" as to what I had time to study out, and so just continued to tithe just to be "sure" -- play it safe-- and just made sure I did it with a good attitude [I really do want to be in a position to give and God has always provided enough for me to do so]). Now that I've read your blog, I do agree (it lines up with what I've read in both Old/New Covenant). What I take away from this, is that I must be sensitive to the Holy Spirit in what I give. Also, 2 Corinthians 8 & 9 amplified version is a good scripture to give balance and understanding on the concept of giving.<br /><br />The idea of giving also leads me to question (try to understand) the idea of "covering", because it makes sense to support your "covering" (if there is such a thing). Is this also a traditional concept rather than a Biblical one? Some say your covering is only related to marriage, not your church or it's leaders - others don't agree. Do you have any answers from a new covenant perspective on this? --CindyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-35401918881812921932012-03-22T07:50:17.626-05:002012-03-22T07:50:17.626-05:00thank you very much joel.
jaredthank you very much joel. <br /><br />jaredAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-82192078808237847242012-03-21T08:01:16.262-05:002012-03-21T08:01:16.262-05:00Last month my friend Ralph Harris wrote a great bl...Last month my friend Ralph Harris wrote a great blog on fasting, bringing up some things about fasting that I had never thought about. In short, and in my own words, fasting isn't about getting something from God, but rather is about getting away from the shallow means of being satisfied that we've become accustomed to, and getting to know the One who truly does satisfy us, all the more.<br /><br />Ralph's post can be found <a href="http://lifecourseministries.blogspot.com/2012/02/for-what-would-christian-fast.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>Joel Bruesekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-63061312476396219022012-03-20T14:50:15.671-05:002012-03-20T14:50:15.671-05:00fasting is another horse here. my humble opinion a...fasting is another horse here. my humble opinion as a radical grace believer is that fasting is often looked at as a gesture of approach or a way we gain favor or get God to act on our behalf as they did in kings when they started crying out and slitting their wrists to get their God to act. yet thats not how I read the grace message. the veil was torn and we can now boldly and with confidence enter into the most holy of holy's and speak directly to our father. we have Gods love and favor already and fasting almost seems as an outward expression of unbelief that we dont trust God with our problems or issues but that it takes action on my behalf to get his attention. I still have much studying to do so this is just me humbly putting the things i think about when fasting comes up.<br />Great article on tithing Joel<br /><br />Any thoughts on the fasting thing for me? Much appreciated.<br /><br />thanks, jaredAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-59265908645790234632011-09-06T11:57:37.018-05:002011-09-06T11:57:37.018-05:00YuppieTalks, thanks for your comment. I'll sa...YuppieTalks, thanks for your comment. I'll say that I'm all for <i>giving</i> when we're able to, and I'm very happy and excited to give to others, especially when I can see how much benefit others will receive from whatever I can give. But tithing is not a New Covenant concept. And while there is one pre-law example of a person (Abraham) giving a one-time tithe of the spoils of war to the local King/Priest (Melchizedek), that in no way means that a "tithe" (tenth) is an example for New Covenant believers to follow.<br /><br />In Hebrews 7, the tithe does not testify that Jesus lives. Rather, "he lives" refers to Melchizedek, and the point in all of that passages is that the Levites, who were not even born yet, effectively paid a tithe through Abraham, because they were "in his loins" at the time. All of this signifies that Melchizedek is greater than the Levites, and since Jesus' Priesthood is "of the order of Melchizedek, then Jesus' Priesthood is superior to that of the Levites, thus making the Old Covenant obsolete.<br /><br />Again, the significance of Abraham's tithe is that Jesus/Melchizedek is greater than the Levites. The tithe doesn't testify that Jesus lives. The tithe testifies that Jesus is greater.<br /><br />On top of all this, the "tithes" (the tithes for the Levites) were never money and were never to a "church." The tithes were a matter of 11 tribes providing food for the 12th tribe. It was all about eating, not about money and not about sustaining a church.<br /><br />And so I will continue encourage people to give in all kinds of ways (maybe having to do with a church and maybe having absolutely nothing to do with a church), but I cannot support the idea of a "tithe."Joel Bruesekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-70905226571239777352011-09-06T08:02:49.067-05:002011-09-06T08:02:49.067-05:00Joel, I'm a believer of Grace. I used to atten...Joel, I'm a believer of Grace. I used to attend a church that speak heavily on tithing.There we are taught that we will be bless if we bring the tithe. When I receive the revelation of Grace, I got confused because I know that I am already blessed and so there is no point in tithing. So how does a New Covenant believer look at tithe. In the Old, people tithe because they are afraid of not being blessed or because they want to be blessed. In the NC, because the LORD has blessed us, we are excited to tithe. The tithe testifies that Jesus is alive (See Hebrews). To me, if you see tithing as a demand then do act on it but if you see tithing as a supply and you see abundance flowing in you then go for it.:) The Restful IncreaseAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13589490463062347932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-45328373864625258012011-09-04T18:04:07.192-05:002011-09-04T18:04:07.192-05:00Tithing was, in a sense, a "tax," althou...Tithing was, in a sense, a "tax," although it of course wasn't worded that way. It was simply the way that God prescribed so that the Levites could focus on their duties under the <i>Old Covenant</i> and not have to work the land or tend animals for food. The other 11 tribes were told to provide for them. It was really pretty simple. :)<br /><br />As for fasting, I don't know if I'd call it a hunger strike. Even in the New Covenant scriptures, there were examples of Christians fasting. I don't particularly feel led to fast (fasting is so slow... LOL), but I think it's still a New Covenant practice for some.Joel Bruesekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-50217348449314018992011-09-01T01:27:09.482-05:002011-09-01T01:27:09.482-05:00this is so enlightening. i seldom hear Christians ...this is so enlightening. i seldom hear Christians talk about tithing.<br /><br />so what can you say about<br /><br />tithing is like income tax?<br />fasting is like hunger strike?<br /><br />just my thoughAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-18420889872989497022011-08-30T08:20:07.320-05:002011-08-30T08:20:07.320-05:00Don, thanks for your comments. The problem that I...Don, thanks for your comments. The problem that I have with the word "tithe" or "tenth" in regards to Christian giving is that a "tenth" has nothing to do with any standard or guideline for Christian giving, but yet it is often preached and taught as if it is. This misguided teaching leads people to think, then, that they are supposed to give 10% of their income to a church.<br /><br />I would much rather simply encourage people to give cheerfully and generously, when they're able to, wherever and whenever they want to give. And as I mentioned in this blog post, there are many people who simply are not able to give 10%, and they should never, ever have to feel as if they are missing the boat because of this unfortunate standard that has been set by the church.<br /><br />So indeed, I am all for "giving" (and giving generously whenever we are able) but not for "tithing."Joel Bruesekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-22458597757487558822011-08-30T08:14:00.968-05:002011-08-30T08:14:00.968-05:00Karen, yep indeed, you're so right. Malachi 3...Karen, yep indeed, you're so right. Malachi 3 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with life in Christ. God had set up laws for the people under the Old Covenant, and some of those laws included having the eleven tribes provide for the twelfth tribe, the Levites, through tithes of their crops and cattle, etc. (Interestingly, it was <i>never</i> money that they tithed). Well, the 11 tribes had forsaken the command to provide for the Levites (and as we read Malachi, we see that they had also forsaken various other laws), and so Malachi came along as God's prophet, and God rebuked the Israelites for not obeying all of these commandments.<br /><br />If we want to incorporate the Malachi tithing rebukes into Christianity, then we have to also include all of the other rebukes, <i>not to mention</i> all of the laws that Malachi was referring to that Israel was not keeping!Joel Bruesekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-43178099185287857012011-08-30T08:13:39.171-05:002011-08-30T08:13:39.171-05:00Thanks for the link, David. There's a lot of i...Thanks for the link, David. There's a lot of informative and helpful information there!Joel Bruesekehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-34598637870032862222011-08-30T05:13:35.127-05:002011-08-30T05:13:35.127-05:00There's a lot to be said here from both sides ...There's a lot to be said here from both sides of the "fence". I'll just give my 10%...If you are tithing because you feel "guilty" or "forced" then stop giving! It's religion! If you are not seeing God in your tithing, then stop giving! It's religion! But if your heart is in your giving and you can see God tangibly working within your finances, then by all means support your church family and the community around you! Give what you can afford to give and stop making a big thing about it!! It's really that simple.Don Geserhttps://www.facebook.com/don.gesernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-22477784313257216932011-08-30T00:18:31.600-05:002011-08-30T00:18:31.600-05:00Hmmm...as I read this, I thought of the famous ...Hmmm...as I read this, I thought of the famous 'tithe' verse in Malachi - 3:8-11. Context is soooo important. They were rebuked for not providing for priests, forcing priests to leave temple & work....Jeannette Alteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06574051760314762024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29606082.post-46613017775601833462011-08-29T14:47:56.645-05:002011-08-29T14:47:56.645-05:00Great post, Joel.
Here's more, in case you&#...Great post, Joel. <br />Here's more, in case you're interested:<br />http://lifewalkblog.wordpress.com/2009/05/27/tithing-and-clergy-salaries/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com