Tradsville - Should I Stay Or Should I Go? / Ponderous

Meeting of One brings draws out some very ponderous things from a video today on his post "Sunday - Tradsville...mmm...". ;) "To O.R.E.C* or not to O.R.E.C"

It really got me thinking... Should I stay or should I go?!

*O.R.E.C. - Organized Religious Entertainment Centre (...or Center, in places where they don't have theatres).



And now for something completely different and unrelated... all based upon the word "ponderous" above. Anyone remember this song from the 80's? I couldn't find the original band (2NU - pronounced "too new") with a video, but at least two people have done their own. Ponderous, man. Really, really ponderous.

2NU - Ponderous

Video Killed the Radio Star / Radio Ga Ga

The song Video Killed the Radio Star from the band Buggles, recorded in 1979, was both nostalgic and prophetic at the same time. The video for the song was the first video ever shown on MTV when the station launched on August 1, 1981.

The song was nostalgic in the sense that it looked back upon the days when radio ruled the world, with its soap operas, game shows, dramas and comedy shows... but then TV came on the scene, and video "killed" many of those who had become stars through radio.

And yet the song was prophetic in the sense that the video music era that would be ushered in by MTV (Music Television - back when the cable TV station actually played videos round the clock) changed the whole landscape of popular music. The music "radio stars" of the 60's and 70's who had become popular through radio airplay would soon be replaced by those who had the best visual effects in their music videos.

The song Radio Ga Ga by Queen had a somewhat similar nostalgic aspect to it, looking back on the good ol' days of radio. The theme of the song was not necessarily as prophetic as Video Killed the Radio Star, but rather hopeful in saying that radio was yet to have "its finest hour."

I think my favorite part of the song is this:

Let's hope you never leave old friend
Like all good things on you we depend
So stick around cos we might miss you
When we grow tired of all this visual
You had your time, you had the power
You've yet to have your finest hour
Radio...

If you know me by now, you know I'm not bringing all of this up simply to make a case about radio vs. video. :) I do enjoy these songs exactly as they are - after all, I grew up with them and I simply dig the music (and videos)! - and yet I also see some metaphors and symbolism that can be applied to the difference between the church as we know it today (that I think has gone off course), and how it's perhaps meant to be.

In simple terms, as I listen to these songs and follow along with the symbolism, I see "radio" as the way church (life in Christ) was meant to be and "video" as the way church has lost its original intent and meaning. Church as it was meant to be - again, in simplistic terms - was people knowing Jesus and being known by Him, and helping one another to grow close to Him and helping one another with the various needs of life. But what it has become is principles, programs, buildings, projects, sermons, morality lessons, attractions, visuals, social clubs, political bases... and so on and so on... you get the point.

I report, you decide. Maybe you have a different take. If nothing else, enjoy the videos!

Buggles - Video Killed the Radio Star


Queen - Radio Ga Ga

My dad's first 50 years of ministry

Today we're back home after four days in Missouri, visiting my parents. My family is spread out across the U.S. so we simply aren't able to see each other, at least not all together, very often. In this case my brother and his wife from San Diego were there, as well as my sister and her husband and daughter from South Carolina.

The main reason for our trip: Yesterday my dad, the Rev. Richard S. Brueseke, celebrated his 50th anniversary as an ordained pastor. The celebration took place at Ebenezer "Stone" Church (U.C.C.), out in the country near Gerald, MO, exactly 50 years to the day of his ordination, June 8, 1958 (in Indiana). As many of you know, I personally, in my heart, have been journeying away from the whole idea of being involved in the way(s) that "church" is traditionally done. But one of many things that keeps me from all-out rejecting the notion that God can't, won't or doesn't work in traditional churches, and through the people in them, is the lifetime ministry of my dad, along with my mom, who also became an ordained pastor over a decade ago.

I've seen that my dad's life as a pastor has not been at all limited to the four walls of each individual church he has served. In every place he has pastored during those 50 years, from Troy, Moscow Mills and St. Louis, Missouri, to Stockport England, to Waverly, Iowa, and back to Bem and Owensville, Missouri, my dad has become actively involved in the lives of those in his congregations and he has reached out to serve the greater communities as well. Not only has he wholeheartedly participated in various activities that other people have created, organized and led in those communities, but he himself has also led the way in organizing and leading many other events, organizations and activities that have served to help others and to show them God's love in all kinds of ways.

A constant theme that has been inseparably woven into my dad's lifetime of ministry - a constant refrain of his - is "love God best by loving your fellow human beings." He has not only talked the talk in this, but he has walked the walk. And he continues to do so. As he himself said yesterday, "God's not done with me yet," referring to his ongoing call to serve people.

During the anniversary service yesterday afternoon, many people stood up to give "testimonies" of my dad's ministry in their lives. Friends, colleagues, church members and family members spoke of dad's commitment to helping and serving others. Even a woman who is a travel agent, who doesn't know dad in the ways that many people know him, attended the service and stood up to testify of how he not only comes into the agency to make travel plans, but how he sits and chats with her about all kinds of other things as well. Another person seemed to speak for many when she said that my dad and mom, in many big ways, have taught people to think outside the box. They have not only taught it, they have led the way.

I had a couple of emotional moments during the service. I felt like a blubbering idiot, because everyone else who took the mic was so very well contained - but yet it's just who I am! See, my dad had asked me to read Isaiah 6:1-8 (see below), and my brother, Barry, to read 1 Cor 15:1-11 ("I am the least of the apostles... but by the grace of God I am what I am"). The officiating pastor read Luke 5:1-11 ("And Jesus said to Simon, 'Do not be afraid. From now on you will catch men'"). These passages lined up together with the theme of the service - the message of God calling people to follow Him, and their responses to Him.

Well, as the service had begun, two or three letters/emails had been read from various people who weren't able to make it to the service, but who had very kind words to say about their relationships with my dad, and his impact on their lives. It was very touching. Also, I had previously been thinking about how much the passage from Isaiah means to me personally, and how it fits the call my dad has followed all these years. When it came time for me to read my passage, I was doing just fine but then I began to choke up slightly at verse 7, where the angel says to Isaiah, "behold this [the live coal] has touched your lips; your iniquity is taken away; and your sin purged." As you may have realized from my blogs, the message of our sins having been taken away is a huge message that is deep in my heart and that I always long to share with whoever will listen. And here I was, really for the first time, declaring this message live and in person to a crowd of people. It meant a lot to me.

But even more than that, during the past few days I had been picturing my dad 50+ years ago as a man in his early to mid 20's responding to God's call on his life. My dad tells me he originally rebelled against the idea of going into the ministry. He even says he rebelled passionately. Part of the rebellion had to do with the pressure placed on him as he himself was the son of a preacher. There were other contributing factors to his rebellion as well, but yet God used various people and events, including the wisdom of a college professor who saw things in him that he hadn't seen, and a trip to a refugee camp in Austria, to begin to speak to his heart and lead him into this lifelong ministry.

So there I stood after having tried to not choke up too much over verse 7, now looking down at the words of verse 8, and I found that I simply could not go on! I tried to speak, but all I could do was weep. After 20 seconds or so I tried to speak again, but it was the same. I must've stood there for at least 60 to 90 seconds, which seemed like eternity, wishing I could just get the words out! Fortunately I looked out and saw many understanding faces, with tissues and handkerchiefs drying many eyes, and finally I was able to compose myself just enough to quickly read verse 8:

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:
Whom shall I send,
And who will go for Us?"
Then I said, “Here am I! Send me."

I believe those words also describe my dad's response when he finally realized the Lord was calling him to preach the gospel. I quickly came down, and gave my dad a hug as I walked by, and my mom as well, and I sat down and it was on with the rest of the service. :) Later during the testimony time I also choked up as I spoke of the love of my parents, but it wasn't nearly as bad as earlier. Afterwards, several people came up to me and of course patted me on the back and said I "done good." It was partially embarrassing, but mostly I was simply happy to have been able to be myself in such an emotional way in front of so many "liturgical" people (there were many "robes" present) in a traditional church setting that doesn't necessarily see such emotion often or at all. One woman joked with me that it's hard to get such emotion in a church. :) And then she said, "And you know what's even harder? To get people laughing hysterically in church!" She cracked me up. Then my sister Amie came up to me and pointed her finger at me and said, "YOU'RE NAUGHTY!" Her husband had been nudging her to stand up and speak but after I made her cry she knew she couldn't do it. ;)

Anway, it was a great day. The service really is one to be remembered, and the reception was great as well. One surprise that happened early on in the service is that one of the members of my mom's former church who happens to be a representative in the Missouri House, presented my dad with a framed inscription of a Resolution passed in the Missouri House of Representatives that recognizes his contributions to the welfare of the state. This is quite an honor for my dad.

As you can tell, I'm proud of my dad. We perhaps have some differences in theology and doctrine, but that really means nothing because when it comes to living the life of love, I have absolutely nothing but respect and thankfulness toward my dad for showing me the way in deed.

Idle musings on "church"

Earlier in the week, my God in the ordinary post was inspired by a blog post over at Idle musings of a bookseller. Another post there on Tuesday has also kept the attention of my thoughts this week. Simply entitled "Good Stuff," this post has some thoughts about "church," among other things that he quotes from other blogs.

The part that caught my attention:

Tell me something... what if we've got it all wrong? The church thing I mean...

What if church is not supposed to be about "worship"? What then?

What if music is supposed to play a minor role and not a major one (excuse the pun).

What if God doesn't care for self-focussed, romantic lyrics sung to boomer, 1980s, soft pop music...

What if church is supposed to be less about music, monologue, lecture-style teaching in theatre style auditoriums and more about living life with people who share the same questions, struggles, joys and challenges that I do?...

By the way, I have been using the word "church" in quotes lately, not as a means of bashing "church," but as a means of emphasizing that I am questioning the modern, commonly held meanings of what "church" really is. That's all. :)

A few more thoughts on "church"

As I've previously mentioned a few times, I've been going through a process of rethinking many things for quite some time, including "church." I've found it wonderful that many of us are going through similar processes, and it's been great that we've been able to encourage one another and build one another up!

Here are some more thoughts from others about "church" that I've come across recently.

Aida has mentioned Darin Hufford, and she has a link to his MySpace on her blog. Through that link, I read some of his blog posts, including this one, entitled "The Church that Christ built." In this post he brings up some things that I have thought about from time to time, and he really brings some more substance to my thoughts and puts them together much more coherently.

Let me just quote a small part of his post that I'm referring to. This gives the gist of what he goes on to talk about, and if you want you can go read the rest. It gets much deeper than this.

I can recall studying the "5 fold ministry" while in Bible collage. At the time we were taught that those five ingredients are what make up the Church. Where Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers are functioning together; there is Church.

Rather than understand that particular verse to mean that these things will exist in the Body of Christ world wide, we have foolishly interpreted it to mean they must exist "underneath one roof".

Have you ever thought that way? I know I have, even if not exactly in the way describe above. I thought, for example, that a church had to have a pastor, elders, a "worship team," committees, and so on and so on, in order to have a true "church." The "5 fold ministry" that Darin speaks about is derived from Eph 4:11-14 (and beyond).

"And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ..."

As Darin states, many churches feel that all five of these must be operating under one roof, or in in any one ministry. But he suggests... are not all these things operating throughout the worldwide church, rather than having to have at least one of each in any individual gathering of believers?

And I think it's the same with all kinds of gifts and works of the Holy Spirit in and through His people all around the world. For example, some people have a true, genuine focus on feeding the poor. Does each and every gathering of people need to have this same focus? Some people are gifted teachers. Can a body of believers be edified without a gifted teacher? I have been taught many times by people who are not gifted teachers!!! Does there have to be a pastor?! Does there have to be music? (See my next post).

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many. (1 Cor 12:12-14)

Are all the "body parts" to be found in each and every local gathering of believers?

Too much emphasis on "church"

Once again the great comments from others (this time on my last post, What people are saying about "church") have led to another blog post!

Alvin's (Walking Church) comments, as well as Aida's follow-up, were similar to what I had in mind when I commented on Aida's Jesus is building His church post, but I lost track of my thoughts and didn't say it. Basically: I think it's true that for some people, especially today's younger generation, phoniness and dung (more specifically, that found in "church") can be smelled a mile away.

My only hope is that people who sense all of that stuff will not have been so turned off by "church" that they decide "to heck with it all," but rather that they would sort through it all, by the Holy Spirit, with a true desire to be a part of a true, living, vibrant community. Along with what Alvin says on his Blogger profile, I hope they don't throw out the gospel with the bath water.

I truly do think the internet is playing a huge part in connecting people together. Well, I don't 'think' it, I know it! I'm part of it, along with all of you. Not that a "gathering together" on the internet through websites, blogs, forums, etc, is the be-all-end-all by any means - but neither is a local gathering! In fact it's to the contrary, isn't it? (Please bear with me, as during the past year or two I've been sorting out all kinds of new thoughts. Well, some of them are new thoughts and some of them are thoughts I've had for a long time but I'm finally beginning to see them become more than thoughts).

On Alan Knox's "Assembling" blog, he wrote a post called "Gathering suggests dispersal," in which he suggests, in a nutshell, that "a gathering or an assembly, by its nature, suggests a dispersal." He goes on to say, "The people of God gather because, in general, they are not assembled - they are dispersed." Read the full post to see how Alan defines "church," as well as to get his thoughts on the purpose of the gathering, and even more importantly, the dispersal. (I should have included this as a link on my last post).

In our modern church culture we seem to focus too much on the gathering, in my opinion. The "worship," the service, the sermon, the programs. "Bring people HERE, to this place - to 'our church,' and we'll get 'em saved, delivered and healed."

The gathering is important, and it's not that a traditional church service can't include any of this! Man, I've seen a LOT of great, true, genuine LIFE happen in church services. In other words, I've seen Jesus express His life in other people and I've seen Jesus express His life through me, all within the context of a "church service" and through various "church programs."

But we place so much emphasis on the structure and timing of the gathering, and on planning what happens during the gathering, and on who's in charge during the gathering, and in finding our place to "serve" within the organized church structure, and in essentially making our gathering into a performance or a show, that I think we lose sight of true worship, true service, true community, true discipleship - all of which can and does happen outside of the context of an organized church / church structure.

The building of the church (the people of God) can be done without the building and the church (system, building, programs). It can be and is done anytime Jesus is the Life and Director and Pastor of whatever He is doing in His church!

I don't mean at all to knock legitimate fellowship and community that is taking place in traditional churches. Even 'contemporary' traditional churches. :) Jesus is alive and well wherever He is alive and well! My hope, if anything, is to point out how we seem to have become so focused and dependent upon man-made programs and systems (however well-intentioned), and we've complacently called that "church," and have lost who we truly are as a widespread body with a much larger mission than gathering, and recruiting people into our gathering, and having a great "gathering experience."

I'd say we're a body that much more resembles a starfish than a spider. :)

What people are saying about "church"

Wow...

I don't know why it is, but I seem to be reading and hearing a whole lot lately about "the church," and how it's not an institution or a building, but it's the people. I got to thinking that perhaps I could compile some of these resources together, and so you'll find a list below.

This is by no means an "anti-church" list. :) That is, I'm not attempting to make any points about what anyone should or shouldn't do in regards to how they view "church." I am, however, making a strong suggestion that many of us have perhaps simply gone along with the modern cultural view of "church," and perhaps there is a place for many of us to rethink things, or at least take a look at what God is doing in and through other people in regards to "church."

Throughout my Christian life, I've heard many people give lip service to phrases such as "the church is the people, not the building," but below I think you will find people who are truly following through with this idea in their hearts and in the ways they go about living life. I don't necessarily follow along with every single thought expressed in every single link, but in my mind they are all related to one common idea.

There would be a lot of reading/viewing involved if you were to click on each link so if any of this interests you, perhaps bookmark this particular blog post and come back to it from time to time. Also, feel free to provide other links if you have any.

In no particular order:

Three of Bino's recent posts:
Rethinking 'Church'
Rethinking 'Community'
Rethinking 'Worship'

Aida: Jesus is building His church

Grace in Flood: A Grace Church

Meeting of one: God's Perspective on the Church

Nicole's Godblog: What is Church?

Nightwatch: The Church - Relationship

Steve McVey
Lie #31 You Should Go To Church
Lie #36 Attending Church Will Keep You From Growing Spiritually Cold

The Assembling of the Church - Alan Knox
(the most comprehensive blog that I follow on this subject)
House Church Workshop series (six posts all linked together)
Should we use the word "church"?
The ekklesia and the kuriakon
The ekklesia of Josephus
The ekklesia in context
Ecclesiology FAQ (here Alan lists many of his posts on his study of the church)

Jake Colsen's book: So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore

Wayne Jacobsen: Why I Don't Go to Church Anymore!

Kings of the Wild Frontier

(I've been wanting to share this for a long time. I do not apologize for the length of this post. :) God's creation is vast, to an extent that is unimaginable. We are part of that creation, and our lives are meant for so much more than a daily struggle to "live right." --- As of today (2/1/07), I have the song mentioned here as my song on myspace. That is subject to change, but I do also have a video for the song there, and that will be there for a while).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel beneath the white
There is a redskin
Suffering
From centuries of taming

I first heard the song “Kings of the Wild Frontier” by Adam and the Ants about 25 to 30 years ago! I was probably about 10 years old. I’ve been a huge Ant fan ever since. (I don’t believe I admitted that!). Well, I was a boy living in England at the time, and the Ants were popular!

There’s never really been anything about “Antmusic” lyrics that turned me on. In fact, I really don’t understand the lyrics most of the time! And when I do understand the lyrics, it’s often a little too… sensual… for my tastes. But I really dig the sound! There’s something about the way the music and vocals are arranged that really gets into my soul like no other music does. And that’s why I listen to it.

But a year or two ago I was listening to ‘Kings of the Wild Frontier,’ and there was something in the lyrics that suddenly did made sense to me, and it really HIT ME right where I was. It was an amazing time. Lots of pent up frustration was released as God spoke to me about my true identity through this song, and He set me free.

In the song, it’s as if Adam is saying that beneath his modern day white man’s skin, there’s an Indian Warrior hidden deep inside, dying to get out, but yet he suffers because he’s been tamed by many years of white man’s culture (some of the early Pirate/Indian/Warrior imagery and music style of the Ants came under the direction of their manager). For years, I'd really had no clue what the song was saying. :) But on this day, it all became crystal clear to me as God was revealing the identity inside of ME that has been suffering because of the culture in which I live.

The culture that I’m speaking of is today’s Church culture.

Let me back up, and get a bit personal, just for a moment. About 2 1/2 years ago, my wife and I had some marital problems. I had been having some doubts about my love for my wife. I won’t get into all the details, but I’ll say that we ended up seeing a counselor. He was great. He listened, and asked questions, and listened some more, and asked more questions. This is truly, truly a very, very condensed version of the story, but the main thing is what the counselor revealed to me about myself.

My problem was not that I didn’t love my wife. I really did (and still do, very much) love my wife. But in trying to be all that I could be as a “good Christian husband,” I wasn’t being the man that God had really wired me to be – who He had truly made me to be as a New Creation (2 Cor. 5:17). If you listen to (or watch) much of today’s Christian media, or go into many of today’s evangelical churches, so much of it is focused on self-improvement, being a better person (being a better spouse, parent, child, coworker, etc), striving to “do” all the do’s and “don’t” all the don’ts.

Many people think that if we can just get our behavior in line, then life will be better. Maybe you don’t disagree with that statement! But I found that the more I tried to get my behavior in line (for example – to be a better husband), the more I felt like a failure because I just couldn’t live up to it! Believe me, I tried for years and it was a rollercoaster ride of success and failure, but mostly the ongoing nagging feeling that I just couldn’t do it. I don’t need to go into great detail here. Either you relate to this or you have the Christian life down pat. :) But here’s a personal example: I would be in bed, or driving somewhere, thinking and praying about something that I really wanted to change in my life. And then I would get all excited as I thought about how I would go about making this change. But then came real life… and the failure to change… and then guilt, despondency, and the feeling that I would never change. It was a vicious circle… a rollercoaster ride as I said.

And the thing is… for 12 years now, I’ve been growing in my understanding of living by God’s grace – not my own efforts to change, but His work in me, which is sufficient. “We are His workmanship” (Eph 2:10). “In Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). “He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it” (1 Thes. 5:23). “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure” (Phil 2:13).

New Covenant life is about counting our self-efforts at pleasing God as dung (rubbish) (see Phil 3:3-11). I know this. I can tell others about it. And for the most part, I live it. Rather than trying to establish MY life as one that is pleasing to God, I have let go and I live my daily life by faith, trusting in Him to do anything and everything in me and through me by His own doing. I’m simply along for the ride. If you just let go, and put your trust in Him and not your own efforts, you will see that He is completely faithful to work the works in you and make the changes in you that He wants to.

Think about it… if we are God’s workmanship, and yet we try to make our lives out to be our own workmanship, even if we think we’re doing it “for” God… we are really making ourselves out to be GOD.

And so my problem is… sometimes I try to be God. In my marriage, I was trying to be God. I sincerely wanted to be a better husband, but instead of letting Him work His wonderful works in me, in His way and in His timing, I was trying to do it. In a sense, I was really just going through the motions of being a good husband. It may have even had a great outward appearance from time to time! But on the inside, I knew I was FAKING it. My “good” efforts to be a better husband were really a work of the flesh. They weren’t coming from my union with God. I had sincere desires, but the efforts were not of God.

And so… I began to think that I didn’t love my wife. All my best efforts, as I said, were just me “faking” it. What I came to find out is that I was faking holiness. I just didn’t realize it at the time. But anytime you try to be holy or righteous by your own efforts, you are FAKING the real thing. The “real thing” is God’s workmanship. Our flesh can't compete with that! And our spirit knows it, but our flesh still wants to try. So, what I was confused about was this: how could I have such sincere desires to please my wife, and yet all my efforts were making me fall flat on my face? This confusion led me to think that I didn’t love her.

But this low point in our marriage led to a great discovery that would forever change us! We saw the counselor together one time, and then we saw him individually. In my time with him, as I said, he asked a lot of questions and really listened to me. And then he told me what he thought. He said quite a bit, and it was all great stuff, but only one word stuck out to me. Here is what he said: “Blah blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah, blah blah IDENTITY blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. :)

The whole problem was that rather than living out of my true Identity in Christ… the New Creation that I truly am… I was trying to be all the things that I thought I was supposed to be for my wife. Again, you may not have much to disagree with about that method of living! Why shouldn’t I try to be the best spouse I can be? The reason is that I can't! The key to everything here is that if you let go, and if you find out who you really are – your true identity in Christ – you won’t have to fake anything. You won’t have to “fake it till you make it.” You won’t have to “try” to be a better spouse (or a better Christian) because God is faithfully at work in you all the time, and He will work the works in you, as He pleases, to make your outside behavior match the New Creation (your identity) that you already are.

I believe the reason there are so many dysfunctional Christians out there is not because we’re failing to get our acts together and start living right. It’s because we are trying to get our acts together and start living right!

My counselor recommended the book “Wild at Heart” by John Eldredge, which I didn’t actually start reading until about a year ago. For the sake of the fact that this is already long, I’ll just say that the gist of the book (at least to me), is getting out of our small, metal, inflexible, rigid, religious boxes that we’ve place ourselves (and God) into… and getting out into God’s world and being who HE created us to be! It's an understatement to call God "wild." Just look at His creation. And look at yourself - created in His image.

Today’s Christian culture has created a lot of these small religious boxes for people - and has kept them from experiencing the fullness of who God created them to be. You don’t know the freedom I experienced when I finally broke free from my little box! “I feel beneath the white there is a redskin suffering from centuries of taming.” I know that the core of who I am – my spirit – has always been longing to get out and to be who it is created to be! My counselor put that in perspective for me 2 1/2 years ago. And then that day – the day I heard those Adam and the Ants lyrics for the thousandth time – my heart cried out to God as the truth hit me in such a way that I knew I could never, ever get inside that box again!

Popeye put it this way: “I am what I am and that’s all that I am.” And God’s word tells us that all that we are is a truly wonderful creation – a work of God that can’t be kept in a religious box and that can never be faked!